Um, no? I'm with you.

And to be honest, the third season involved two new females... but both of them were antagonistic. So yes, it's not necessarily his damn fault. Whether you liked Ruby or not (I did) she was in fact a demon. Whether you liked Bella or not (I didn't) she was in fact a thief. So yes, this season is going to be filled with a lot of women hate because it is, right now, these boys and Bobby against the girls and yes, he's going to use female-specific terms because they are female.

My love for the show has been somewhat diminished, but not because of 'mysogeny'... because of sloppy writing and bad plotting and unremarkable episodes. Which is what I thought of this run, as much as there were moments of brilliance.

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because of sloppy writing and bad plotting and unremarkable episodes

I haven't fallen out of the show (as yet anyway) but I have to agree with you about this. I think in many ways its also what made the 'mysogeny' worse - people ignored it more in previous seasons where writing has been better over all.

I know Kripke has stated he's been out of the writing room more, and (unless he's just running out of momentum, which is also possible) I feel like the team he's got backing him up in there just isn't getting the job done. I've got my fingers crossed that maybe he can get some fresh blood in there for s4, or have to deal with less of the coorperate bs...

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This is why I can't be bothered to participate in fandoms anymore. Because every little farking thing is over-analyzed to the point that there is something WRONG with a show no matter what it is.

There is nothing in the whole damn world wrong with enjoying the show - or the character. EVEN if he's the kind of guy that you would scream at and kick in the shins if you knew him in the real world. (I do not because I haven't watched it, but from all reports, I would. Hard. With my boots on. And laugh.)

It doesn't make you a bad feminist, or a traitor to women. It just makes you able to separate your entertainment from the larger issues of the real world.

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I think Dean is an equal opportunity offender. It doesn't bother me overly much, really. What DOES bother me a bit is the fact that all of the women they encounter are amazingly attractive. There is never a nice, plump, average looking woman in need of their help; none of the mothers of small kids have an extra ounce of fat on them, and they're always made up, even when they are supposed to look terrible.


I guess I am not in much danger from supernatural forces, eh?

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Or red heads, have you noticed?

I tend to ignore that issue in particular (attractiveness) just because its the CW. We're just lucky we didn't get a One Tree Hill with ghosts, as far as I'm concerned. Stupid effing network of stupidity..

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I don't think anyone's going to demagnetize your Feminist Cred card, no.

But since you're asking -- my personal line when there's legit criticism to made isn't whether I feel offense or not, but whether I insult or undermine the people who do feel it. Nobody can be viscerally upset over every single thing out there that promotes sexism/racism/homophobia/classism/cruelty to small fluffy puppies -- somebody with a certain set of life experiences will feel offended by the elephant's nose, somebody with another set of experiences and background will notice the elephant's ear, somebody who's particularly aware of tails will be angry about the elephant's tail, etc. I don't have to have an elephant stepping on my toe to respect that some people may be hurt by the elephant's feet.

My analogy is not only ablist but nonsensical, but I hope the gist comes through.

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I'm the same way:( While Dean has said some things this season that made me really uncomfortable, I still enjoy the show. I still like Dean too. I know this show has had many issues with it's treatment of women this season, but I honestly don't think Kripke and Co. realize it.

I just continue to watch and hope they fix it in season 4 (along with all the other problems in season 3).

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...yeah, I actually can't get worked up about it. I note that every time Dean calls Ruby something awful, he summarily gets his ass kicked. And no amount of Dean talking like, surprise!, an actual blue collar nomadic poorly socialized young American man is going to make me love him any less. He's literature. So is a bunch of other stuff that makes us uncomfortable. What bothers me is the automatic assumption that both the writers and the fans who don't decry the treatment of women in the show endorse it. You can put something in an art form and prove a point about something you don't like.

Whatever. I'm bored of it. I want my damn show, and I want squee, and I don't want to feel unwelcome in fandom because of my opinion thereof. Is it September yet?

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-- yes! That's it. That's what I was trying to articulate.

Thanks!

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You said what I meant, only shorter and more concisely . Agonistes too.

And nope. Its not even June yet. This is totally why I was rooting for a mini-season...

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I'm irritated by it, and not going to pretend I'm not.

But I still love the show and the character. If/when they irritate me, I'm going to wish they were better and try to do what little I can to help them become better by voicing my irritation as a fan, but I'm not going to stop loving them. So. *shrugs*

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You are not a bad feminist for disagreeing with other feminists.

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Way I see it? The way women (and people who aren't white) are treated/portrayed on the show sometimes bothers me. A lot. But if it weren't such a great show, I would just brush off the whole thing.

Instead, I criticize because I love it and want it to be better.

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No, not at all.

It always leaves me slightly baffled actually how Supernatural gets Sam and Dean and their relationship with each other so very very right and yet still has all these skeevy issues round the edge. Tends to make me feel quite like I've got a split personality at the end of any give episode with one voice just wanting to hug the boys and the other wanting to gag Dean, or sit the writers down and explain feminism 101 (female sexuality is not a bad thing, single mothers can have jobs too...)

I think a lot of people have just got worn down over the season and it's all spilling out now. Wait till it's starting up again and we'll all be back hopeful that it's changed...

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You and me are in the same boat, here. I've always recognized that the show has race and gender issues - except that with Supernatural I don't care. Its due to a couple of reasons. 1) The Show is not Important. It isn't winning an Emmy and no one is touting it as Good TV That Everyone Should Watch. Its a fun show that has good points and bad points, y'know? Should I dislike Dexter because it glorifies a serial killer? 2) Its a reflection of an existing mindset. The Show has its problems, but Dean in particular lost his mother at the age of 4, has (as far as we've ever been exposed to) never had a proper relationship with a woman, and was raised in an atmosphere of lies and persecution. Sam had to make an effort to become as socially adept as he has always seemed to me. And in s3 especially, I don't think Dean has particularly gotten laid since before The Kids are Alright. Given his personality and previously shown interactions with women, in a growing atmosphere of tension, depression, and anxiety, and he isn't getting laid... yeah I'm really not surprised if he's more derisive and an asshole. That's what happens to people, whether the writers planned it that way or not.

With only a couple of exceptions, this perspective seems to put me in that same whatever category. There's a good number of conversations about the show that would have been amusing, that turn to harp on the subject, and because it Doesn't Matter To Me the Way It Ought To it hedges on a fight.

I don't think you should feel guilty. If you watched the show and didn't think those problems existed, it'd be one thing, y'know? But the show should be fun. If they can't have fun with it anymore, because these issues Mean Too Much to those women, that's fine too, for them. But for me? The Show just Isn't Important enough to stop having fun for an hour a week...

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I don't think anyone should feel guilty about their love for a show/book/character/etc. If there's stuff worthy of love there? Go for it.

That doesn't mean it's not important to respect other people's opinions and feelings on it, and to think about those opinions rather than immediately dismissing them. (This is a general statement -- I'm not saying it's anything you do or have done.) But if you love something? You're allowed to! Even if other people don't, and even if they have good reasons for not, and even if you partially agree with them too. Embrace it and have fun.

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